"Wo ni i": ifọrọwanilẹnuwo pẹlu Anna Starobinets

Awọn imọ-ọkan: Kí nìdí tí àwọn dókítà Rọ́ṣíà fi ṣe irú ọ̀nà bẹ́ẹ̀ sí àwọn ìbéèrè nípa iṣẹ́yún? Ṣe kii ṣe gbogbo awọn ile-iwosan ṣe eyi ni orilẹ-ede wa? Tabi ni o wa pẹ-igba abortions arufin? Kini idi fun iru ibatan ajeji bẹẹ?

Anna Starobinets: Ni Russia, awọn ile-iwosan amọja nikan ni o ṣiṣẹ ni didi oyun fun awọn idi iṣoogun ni akoko ipari. Nitoribẹẹ, eyi jẹ ofin, ṣugbọn nikan ni awọn aaye ti o muna. Fun apẹẹrẹ, ni ile-iwosan arun ajakalẹ-arun kanna lori Sokolina Gora, eyiti o nifẹ pupọ lati dẹruba awọn aboyun ni awọn ile-iwosan aboyun.

Wipe o dabọ si ọmọde: itan ti Anna Starobinets

Obinrin kan ti o dojuko iwulo lati fopin si oyun ni ọjọ miiran ko ni aye lati yan ile-iṣẹ iṣoogun ti o baamu. Dipo, yiyan kii ṣe ju awọn aaye pataki meji lọ.

As for the reaction of doctors: it is connected with the fact that in Russia there is absolutely no moral and ethical protocol for working with such women. That is, roughly speaking, subconsciously any doctor — whether ours or German — feels a desire to distance himself from such a situation. None of the doctors want to take delivery of a dead fetus. And none of the women do not want to give birth to a dead child.

O kan jẹ pe awọn obinrin ni iru iwulo bẹẹ. Ati fun awọn dokita ti o ni orire to lati ṣiṣẹ ni awọn ohun elo ti ko koju pẹlu awọn idilọwọ (iyẹn ni, pupọ julọ awọn dokita), ko si iru iwulo. Ohun ti wọn sọ fun awọn obinrin pẹlu iderun ati iye ikorira kan, laisi sisẹ awọn ọrọ ati awọn itọsi rara. Nitoripe ko si ilana ti iwa.

Nibi o yẹ ki o tun ṣe akiyesi pe nigbamiran, bi o ti wa ni jade, awọn dokita ko paapaa mọ pe ni ile-iwosan wọn tun ṣee ṣe iru idalọwọduro. Fun apẹẹrẹ, ni Moscow aarin. Kulakov, Mo sọ fun mi pe “wọn ko ṣe pẹlu iru awọn nkan bẹẹ.” Ni ana, awọn alakoso ile-iṣẹ yii kan si mi ati pe ni ọdun 2012 wọn tun n ṣe iru awọn nkan bẹẹ.

Sibẹsibẹ, ko dabi Germany, nibiti a ti kọ eto kan lati ṣe iranlọwọ fun alaisan kan ni ipo aawọ ati pe oṣiṣẹ kọọkan ni ilana ti o han gbangba ti awọn iṣe ni iru ọran, a ko ni iru eto kan. Nitorinaa, dokita olutirasandi kan ti o ṣe amọja ni awọn pathologies oyun le jẹ alaimọ pe ile-iwosan rẹ ti ṣiṣẹ ni ifopinsi awọn oyun pathological wọnyi, ati pe awọn alaga rẹ ni idaniloju pe ko ni lati mọ nipa rẹ, nitori aaye ọjọgbọn rẹ jẹ olutirasandi.

Boya awọn itọnisọna tacit wa lati ṣe idiwọ fun awọn obinrin lati fopin si oyun lati le mu iwọn ibimọ pọ si?

Oh no. Against. In this situation, a Russian woman experiences incredible psychological pressure from doctors, she is actually forced to have an abortion. Many women told me about this, and one of them shares this experience in my book — in its second, journalistic, part. She tried to insist on her right to report a pregnancy with a lethal pathology of the fetus, give birth to a child in the presence of her husband, say goodbye and bury. As a result, she gave birth at home, with a huge risk to her life and, as it were, outside the law.

Ni Germany, paapaa ni ipo kan pẹlu ọmọ ti ko le yanju, kii ṣe akiyesi ọmọde kan ti o ni aisan Down syndrome, obirin nigbagbogbo ni ipinnu boya lati ṣe ijabọ iru oyun tabi fopin si. Ní ti Down, wọ́n tún fún un láǹfààní láti ṣèbẹ̀wò sí àwọn ìdílé tí àwọn ọmọ tó ní irú àìsàn bẹ́ẹ̀ ti dàgbà, wọ́n sì tún sọ fún wọn pé àwọn kan wà tó fẹ́ gba irú ọmọ bẹ́ẹ̀.

Ati pe ninu awọn abawọn ti ko ni ibamu pẹlu igbesi aye, a sọ fun obinrin German naa pe oyun rẹ yoo ṣe bi eyikeyi oyun miiran, ati lẹhin ibimọ, ao fun oun ati ẹbi rẹ ni ile-iyẹwu ọtọtọ ati anfani lati sọ o dabọ fun ọmọ naa. Nibẹ. Ati pẹlu, ni ibeere rẹ, a pe alufa kan.

In Russia, a woman does not have a choice. Nobody wants a pregnancy like this. She is invited to go through «one step at a time» for an abortion. Without family and priests. Moreover, even in the case of non-lethal, but severe pathologies, the model of behavior of doctors is usually the same: «Urgently go for an interruption, then you will give birth to a healthy one.»

Kini idi ti o pinnu lati lọ si Germany?

Mo fẹ lati lọ si orilẹ-ede eyikeyi nibiti awọn ifopinsi igba pẹ ti ṣe ni ọna eniyan ati ọlaju. Ni afikun, o ṣe pataki fun mi pe Mo ni awọn ọrẹ tabi ibatan ni orilẹ-ede yii. Nitorinaa, yiyan wa ni ipari lati awọn orilẹ-ede mẹrin: France, Hungary, Germany ati Israeli.

Ni France ati Hungary wọn kọ mi, nitori. gẹgẹ bi awọn ofin wọn, awọn iṣẹyun igba pẹ ko ṣee ṣe lori awọn aririn ajo laisi iyọọda ibugbe tabi ọmọ ilu. Ní Ísírẹ́lì, wọ́n ti ṣe tán láti tẹ́wọ́ gba mi, ṣùgbọ́n wọ́n kìlọ̀ pé kásẹ́ẹ̀tì pupa tó jẹ́ alákòóso iṣẹ́ ìsìn náà máa lò ó kéré tán oṣù kan. Ni ile-iwosan Berlin Charité wọn sọ pe wọn ko ni awọn ihamọ fun awọn ajeji, ati pe ohun gbogbo yoo ṣee ṣe ni kiakia ati eniyan. Nitorina a lọ sibẹ.

Don’t you think that for some women it is much easier to survive the loss of a «fetus» and not a «baby»? And that parting, funerals, talking about a dead child, correspond to a certain mentality and are not suitable for everyone here. Do you think this practice will take root in our country? And does it really help women relieve themselves of guilt after such an experience?

Now it doesn’t seem to. After the experience I had in Germany. Initially, I proceeded from exactly the same social attitudes that practically everything in our country comes from: that in no case should you look at a dead baby, otherwise he will then appear in nightmares all his life. That you should not bury him, because «why do you need such a young, children’s grave.»

But about the terminological, let’s say, acute angle — «fetus» or «baby» — I stumbled immediately. Not even a sharp corner, but rather a sharp spike or nail. It is very painful to hear when your child, although unborn, but absolutely real for you, moving in you, is called a fetus. Like he’s some kind of pumpkin or lemon. It doesn’t comfort, it hurts.

As for the rest — for example, the answer to the question, whether to look at it after the birth or not — my position changed from minus to plus after the birth itself. And I am very grateful to the German doctors for the fact that throughout the day they gently but persistently offered me to “look at him”, reminded me that I still have such an opportunity. There is no mentality. There are universal human reactions. In Germany, they were studied by professionals — psychologists, doctors — and made part of statistics. But we have not studied them and proceed from antediluvian grandmother’s conjectures.

Yes, it is easier for a woman if she said goodbye to the child, thus expressing respect and love for the person who was and who is gone. To a very small — but human. Not for pumpkin. Yes, it’s worse for a woman if she turned away, didn’t look, didn’t say goodbye, left “as soon as possible to forget.” She feels guilty. She does not find peace. That’s when she gets nightmares. In Germany, I talked a lot about this topic with specialists who work with women who have lost a pregnancy or a newborn baby. Please note that these losses are not divided into pumpkins and non-pumpkins. The approach is the same.

Fun idi wo ni a le sẹ obinrin kan ni Russia ni iṣẹyun? Ti eyi ba wa ni ibamu si awọn itọkasi, lẹhinna isẹ naa wa ninu iṣeduro tabi rara?

Wọn le kọ nikan ti ko ba si iṣoogun tabi awọn itọkasi awujọ, ṣugbọn ifẹ nikan. Ṣugbọn nigbagbogbo awọn obinrin ti ko ni iru awọn itọkasi bẹẹ wa ni oṣu mẹta keji ati pe ko ni ifẹ lati ṣe bẹ. Wọn fẹ ọmọ, tabi ti wọn ko ba ṣe, wọn ti ṣẹyun tẹlẹ ṣaaju ọsẹ 12. Ati bẹẹni, ilana idalọwọduro jẹ ọfẹ. Ṣugbọn nikan ni awọn aaye pataki. Ati, dajudaju, laisi yara idagbere.

Kini o kọlu ọ julọ nipa awọn asọye irako lori awọn apejọ ati media awujọ ti o kowe nipa (o ṣe afiwe wọn si awọn eku ni ipilẹ ile)?

I was struck by the total absence of a culture of empathy, a culture of sympathy. That is, in fact, there is no «ethical protocol» at all levels. Neither doctors nor patients have it. It simply does not exist in society.

Since we are Puritans, for the sin of copulation, a dirty woman is entitled to suffering — from sexual infections to childbirth. And since we are Sparta, we must go through these sufferings without even uttering a word. Hence the classic remark of a midwife at childbirth: “I liked it under a peasant — now don’t yell.” Screams and tears are for the weak. And there are more genetic mutations.

An embryo with a mutation is a culling, a spoiled fetus. The woman who wears it is of poor quality. Spartans don’t like them. She is not supposed to have sympathy, but a harsh rebuke and an abortion. Because we are strict, but fair: do not whine, shame on you, wipe your snot, lead the right way of life — and you will give birth to another, healthy one.

Imọran wo ni iwọ yoo fun awọn obinrin ti o ni lati fopin si oyun tabi ti o ni iriri iloyun? Bawo ni lati ye rẹ? Nitorina bi ko ṣe da ara rẹ lẹbi ati ki o ma ṣe ṣubu sinu ibanujẹ jinlẹ?

Here, of course, it is most logical to advise you to seek help from a professional psychologist. But, as I said a little higher, it is very difficult to find it. Not to mention that this pleasure is expensive. In the second part of the book “Look at him”, I talk exactly on this topic — how to survive — with Christine Klapp, MD, head physician of the Charité-Virchow obstetrics clinic in Berlin, which specializes in late pregnancy terminations, and performs not only gynecological, but and psychological counseling for their patients and their partners. Dr. Klapp gives a lot of interesting advice.

For example, she is convinced that a man needs to be included in the “mourning process”, but it should be borne in mind that he recovers faster after the loss of a child, and also has difficulty enduring round-the-clock mourning. However, you can easily arrange with him to devote to a lost child, say, a couple of hours a week. A man is capable of talking during these two hours only on this topic — and he will do it honestly and sincerely. Thus, the couple will not be separated.

Ṣugbọn eyi jẹ gbogbo fun wa, nitorinaa, apakan kan ti awujọ ajeji patapata ati ọna igbesi aye ẹbi. Ni ọna wa, Mo ni imọran awọn obirin lati gbọ akọkọ ti gbogbo si ọkàn wọn: ti ọkàn ko ba ti ṣetan lati "gbagbe ati gbe lori", lẹhinna ko ṣe pataki. O ni ẹtọ si ibinujẹ, laibikita ohun ti awọn miiran ro nipa rẹ.

Unfortunately, we do not have professional psychological support groups at maternity hospitals, however, in my opinion, it is better to share experiences with non-professional groups than not to share at all. For example, on Facebook (an extremist organization banned in Russia) for some time now, sorry for the tautology, there is a closed group “Heart is open”. There is quite adequate moderation, which screens out trolls and boors (which is rare for our social networks), and there are many women who have experienced or are experiencing loss.

Ṣe o ro pe ipinnu lati tọju ọmọ jẹ ipinnu obirin nikan? Ati pe kii ṣe awọn alabaṣepọ meji? Lẹhinna, awọn ọmọbirin nigbagbogbo fopin si oyun wọn ni ibere ọrẹ wọn, ọkọ wọn. Ṣe o ro pe awọn ọkunrin ni ẹtọ si eyi? Bawo ni a ṣe tọju eyi ni awọn orilẹ-ede miiran?

Of course, a man does not have the legal right to demand that a woman have an abortion. A woman can resist the pressure and refuse. And can succumb — and agree. It is clear that a man in any country is capable of exerting psychological pressure on a woman. The difference between conditional Germany and Russia in this regard is two things.

Ni akọkọ, o jẹ iyatọ ninu igbega ati awọn koodu aṣa. Awọn ara ilu Iwọ-oorun Yuroopu ni a kọ lati igba ewe lati daabobo awọn aala ti ara wọn ati bọwọ fun awọn miiran. Wọn jẹ iṣọra pupọ ti eyikeyi ifọwọyi ati titẹ ẹmi-ọkan.

Secondly, the difference in social guarantees. Roughly speaking, a Western woman, even if she does not work, but is entirely dependent on her man (which is extremely rare), has a kind of “safety cushion” in case she is left alone with a child. She can be sure that she will receive social benefits, on which one can really live, albeit not very luxuriously, deductions from the salary of the father of the child, as well as other bonuses for a person in a crisis situation — from a psychologist to a social worker.

Laanu, obirin Russia kan jẹ ipalara diẹ sii ni ipo ti alabaṣepọ ko fẹ ọmọ, ṣugbọn o ṣe.

Ipinnu ikẹhin, dajudaju, wa pẹlu obinrin naa. Bibẹẹkọ, ninu ọran yiyan “pro-igbesi aye”, o gbọdọ mọ pe oun n gba ojuse pupọ ju obinrin ara Jamani kan ti o ni majemu, pe oun kii yoo ni adaṣe ko ni isunmọ awujọ, ati alimony, ti o ba jẹ eyikeyi, jẹ ẹgan. .

Ni ti abala ofin: Awọn dokita ilu Jamani sọ fun mi pe ti o ba de opin si oyun kan, sọ, nitori Down syndrome, wọn ni awọn ilana lati ṣe abojuto tọkọtaya naa ni pẹkipẹki. Ati pe, ti o ba jẹ ifura kan pe obirin kan pinnu lati ni iṣẹyun labẹ titẹ lati ọdọ alabaṣepọ rẹ, wọn dahun lẹsẹkẹsẹ, ṣe igbese, pe onisẹpọ-ọkan, ṣe alaye fun obinrin naa kini awọn anfani awujọ ti oun ati ọmọ inu rẹ jẹ ẹtọ ti o ba jẹ pe o jẹ. bíbí. Ni ọrọ kan, wọn ṣe ohun gbogbo ti ṣee ṣe lati gba rẹ kuro ninu titẹ yii ati fun u ni aye lati ṣe ipinnu ominira.

Nibo ni o ti bi awọn ọmọde? Ni Russia? Podọ be jiji yetọn gọalọna yé nado doakọnna awufiẹsa lọ ya?

The eldest daughter Sasha was already there when I lost the child. I gave birth to her in Russia, in the Lyubertsy maternity hospital, in 2004. She gave birth for a fee, «under the contract.» My girlfriend and my ex-partner were present at the birth (Sasha Sr., the father of Sasha Jr., could not be present, he then lived in Latvia and everything was, as they say now, “difficult”), during the contractions we were provided with a special ward with shower and a big rubber ball.

Gbogbo eyi dara pupọ ati ominira, ikini kanṣoṣo lati Soviet ti o ti kọja ni arabinrin arugbo kan ti o sọ di mimọ pẹlu garawa kan ati mop kan, ti o fọ sinu idyll tiwa yii lẹẹmeji, ti fọ ilẹ ni lile labẹ wa o si rọra sọ fun ararẹ labẹ ẹmi rẹ. : “Wo ohun ti wọn ṣe! Deede eniyan fun ibi ni dubulẹ.

I didn’t have epidural anesthesia during childbirth, because, supposedly, it’s bad for the heart (later, a doctor I knew told me that just at that time in the Lyubertsy house something was wrong with anesthesia — what exactly was “not right”, I do not know). When my daughter was born, the doctor tried to slip a pair of scissors into my ex-boyfriend and said, «Daddy’s supposed to cut the umbilical cord.» He fell into a stupor, but my friend saved the situation — she took the scissors from him and cut something there herself. After that, we were given a family room, where all four of us — including a newborn — and spent the night. In general, the impression was good.

Mo bí ọmọkùnrin mi àbíkẹ́yìn, Leva, ní Latvia, ní ilé ìwòsàn ẹlẹ́wà Jurmala, pẹ̀lú ẹ̀jẹ̀, pẹ̀lú ọkọ mi àyànfẹ́. A ṣe apejuwe awọn ibi-ibi wọnyi ni opin iwe Wo ni Rẹ. Ati, dajudaju, ibi ọmọkunrin kan ṣe iranlọwọ fun mi lọpọlọpọ.

There is such a thing as «empty hands». When you are expecting a child, but for some reason you lose it, you feel with your soul and body around the clock that your hands are empty, that they do not have what should be there — your baby. The son filled this void with himself, purely physically. But the one before him, I will never forget. And I don’t want to forget.